Covenant sci-fi amalgam

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Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-22 10:58

I've been watching this since day one. I was never consulted or asked when Kurge set up an entire separate galaxy with attendant sci-fi empire, but given how he treated the also contested character 'Kurge' in mind, I've kept my peace to see where he went with it.

When ICE was set up, Kurge asked if we could include his creation in the storyline. I directed him to Mai and Jubar who are primarily responsible for maintaining the storyline, but I haven't gotten any specific feedback regarding it, nor did I ask until recently. When this happened, I thought it would perhaps become possible to contain the problem and still let Kurge has his way. What Mai brought up was however not the general problem which the 'Covenant' represents, but instead the question of Rikku's implanted abilities, which Kurge said he would steer away from.

What I see is an increasing amount of involvement with this 'Covenant', not just in ICE but with the main storyline, in 'Covenant Rising'. For the moment the problem is contained, but it threatens to spill over at any time.

It can only lead to increasing amounts of something expressly forbidden in the ICE planning thread, namely, contamination of the NIF storyline with non-canon elements.

I would have directed my questions to Kurge alone and in private, if it was not for this part; it is involving an ever increasing number of members. My question to you is simple enough - do you mind this contamination? Think carefully before you answer.

Kurge has set up the Covenant to be at least comparable tech-wise with the NIF, and at times strongly implies that it would be superior, albeit without reason. None of his designs went through peer review, so they're not valid. It would be logical to start trade with a peaceful Covenant, and thus we would shortly be using said 'superior' technology. With a hostile Covenant, we would make war... and since we're talking about a large space nation, it would overshadow any conflict we may have with the NR. With a strongly isolationistic and/or inferior Covenant, they would possibly not even exist as far as we are concerned, and have no impact, the last being what I'm after. But here they are, and we have to deal with it somehow.

The way the Covenant is set up and handled right now is impossible to allow as far as I'm concerned. At the very minimum, I'm about to make drastic changes to it, if not outright delete it. But I'm asking how you look at it before taking action. It is the road to generic sci-fi amalgam, it is not a Star Wars storyline at all.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-22 16:53

Kane wrote:I've been watching this since day one. I was never consulted or asked when Kurge set up an entire separate galaxy with attendant sci-fi empire, but given how he treated the also contested character 'Kurge' in mind, I've kept my peace to see where he went with it.

When ICE was set up, Kurge asked if we could include his creation in the storyline. I directed him to Mai and Jubar who are primarily responsible for maintaining the storyline, but I haven't gotten any specific feedback regarding it, nor did I ask until recently. When this happened, I thought it would perhaps become possible to contain the problem and still let Kurge has his way. What Mai brought up was however not the general problem which the 'Covenant' represents, but instead the question of Rikku's implanted abilities, which Kurge said he would steer away from.

What I see is an increasing amount of involvement with this 'Covenant', not just in ICE but with the main storyline, in 'Covenant Rising'. For the moment the problem is contained, but it threatens to spill over at any time.

It can only lead to increasing amounts of something expressly forbidden in the ICE planning thread, namely, contamination of the NIF storyline with non-canon elements.

I would have directed my questions to Kurge alone and in private, if it was not for this part; it is involving an ever increasing number of members. My question to you is simple enough - do you mind this contamination? Think carefully before you answer.

Kurge has set up the Covenant to be at least comparable tech-wise with the NIF, and at times strongly implies that it would be superior, albeit without reason. None of his designs went through peer review, so they're not valid. It would be logical to start trade with a peaceful Covenant, and thus we would shortly be using said 'superior' technology. With a hostile Covenant, we would make war... and since we're talking about a large space nation, it would overshadow any conflict we may have with the NR. With a strongly isolationistic and/or inferior Covenant, they would possibly not even exist as far as we are concerned, and have no impact, the last being what I'm after. But here they are, and we have to deal with it somehow.

The way the Covenant is set up and handled right now is impossible to allow as far as I'm concerned. At the very minimum, I'm about to make drastic changes to it, if not outright delete it. But I'm asking how you look at it before taking action. It is the road to generic sci-fi amalgam, it is not a Star Wars storyline at all.

If I may quickly add a little something to this before anyone posts. My points are as follows:

1) All the threads done "Rising" and "Rising Part 2" are by invitation/interest only. There is nothing there that forces or compels anything done there to affect or influence the NIF storyline overall.

2) I personally find the use of the word "contamination" a bit amusing. This is why: ICE is by its nature and plan not technically SW canon in any shape/form/existence etc, for several reasons but only going to give the three biggest. First, you are exiting the 'known SW galaxy' which is going to inherently leave you at guess what! Non-Canon material. So, being painfully technical, if you wanted to be canon then ICE would have to be dropped. Now, I am not saying that it should, hopefully, the concept being made is well understood. Second, I have made it abundantly clear from when I was told as to the the plan for ICE that it would probably need some help. The project in question was to help fill in that gap of a 'non-canon' galaxy presents. Third, the interactions that may or may not result in ICE would be and are up to Mai and Jubar. As stated, the project is to assist in the storyline or add to them not be a 'problem'. If you want a citation of a similar thing done in the past it would the "Achilles Mandalore' and the Mandalarans. Which are not technically canon either: (Canon Planet list).

3) Technology levels are very varied. It ranges from very subpar to abovepar. It all depends on whom you are referring to. The vast majority of the interactions with that group would be below the NIF technological level. The exceptions to that is only two. Where one is about even with the NR/NIF and the other is significantly higher (albeit very laid back and a bit isolationist).

4) As to the Rikku part etc, I already said yet I am going to repeat myself once more and only once "the material that would be problematic is removed". So, that is not an issue at it stands.

5) As to how the Covenant interacts is actually up to how the members of the board roleplay it out. It could become expansionist and militaristic. It may take an isolationist approach. Or it could be somewhere in between. I planned for that on purpose as generally the SW universe and how it will progress is rather set in stone. We know where it will go for the next 100 or so years. The question is how it will get there. The Covenant project is designed such that you actually have a choice of how things develop or progress. I don't know about you but having the ability to really be able to influence the outcome is a nice change.

6) At present, I am working through and parring down some stuff for the ease of being able to read/follow and to make sure to the best of my ability that there is nothing else that may be problematic (that I missed). If you have questions as to that please ask them.

7) I am going to cite 1.0.1.3.4 from the Official Rules. Deletion and drastic modifications without at least notifying the individual of what changes and reasons would be cause for complaint. To do so, I may be very much inclined to charge that individual with "godmoding" tyrannical behavior and lack of respect. As per the previous post on board etiquette earlier this year, such an action may be viewed as a direct/serious violation. So, in case that becomes an unaddressable issue and to make sure everyone is clear, that may result in the temporary/permanent leaving of this board. I very much enjoy the privilege and fun here, however, if it becomes clear to me that the respect that I show to everyone else is not mutual then I may need to reevaluate being on this board.

On that note, this is nothing personal to anyone, especially Kane, Mai or Jubar; as I greatly respect all of you! However, it has been increasingly obvious lately that in certain specific areas, there is a lack of mutual respect and professional etiquette being displayed. For the record, I am aware that I am not the only individual that has an issue with that individual in the certain forum. If you want to know what I am referring to than ask. If not, I am going to assume you either you *don't* know or don't care or both (I would like to believe it is the first one).

8) There is are specific reasons for that none of those designs went through IDOMIR. The first is that if you don't understand the basis for something you can't really be a moderator for it. Second, there is increasing concern in the capability in one of those individuals moding IDOMIR to be a fair and reasonable individual (hint: this is cause for the issue previously noted). If you don't believe me, use your admin powers and take a look through the chat logs for the last month. Third, these designs were peer reviewed just not in the IDOMIR. Numerous people assisted and reviewed the sections as they were put up. So, with all respect, your statement that they were not peer reviewed is incorrect. Fourthly, all the specs listed are based on and directly correlating to DB values and other SW-Canon specifications.

I sincerely apologize if this post is read as bit abrasive or negative. However, given that the cat is let out and we are going to have a serious discussion about it, I decided that being upfront and honest would be the best course of action. Again, if anyone's feelings are hurt then I am very deeply sorry about that. Lastly, I would like to reiterate that it is very much an honor and a pleasure to be here. I would not have it any other way! I just felt that if for an open and honest discussion it needed to be started that way.

PS. I noticed that I somehow missed an important word, I added it in and noted it: **.
Last edited by TyrAnazazi on 2011-04-22 21:35, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-22 17:23

TyrAnazazi wrote:1) All the threads done "Rising" and "Rising Part 2" are by invitation/interest only. There is nothing there that forces or compels anything done there to affect or influence the NIF storyline overall.
That's why I haven't already deleted it. The threat is apparent, however, and getting to a critical point. That's why I chose to intervene now.
TyrAnazazi wrote:2) I personally find the use of the word "contamination" a bit amusing. This is why: ICE is by its nature and plan not technically SW canon in any shape/form/existence etc, for several reasons but only going to give the three biggest. First, you are exiting the 'known SW galaxy' which is going to inherently leave you at guess what! Non-Canon material.
None of which will be allowed to contaminate the main storyline, as previously expressly stated. Which is exactly what I'm dealing with right here in this thread. A reminder:
Kane wrote:It hasn't been mentioned publicly yet, but I'm going to establish it without any doubt and might just as well bring it up now during the planning phase.

Alien technologies (or 'powers') will fall under one of two categories. They're comparatively primitive, or they're unusable. The only third option is technologies that compares to ours but works under different principles, which makes them a curiosity at best.

The purpose of this rule is to avoid contamination of the main NIF storyline. With very few exceptions, what goes on within ICE, stays frozen.
TyrAnazazi wrote:If you want a citation of a similar thing done in the past it would the "Achilles Mandalore' and the Mandalarans. Which are not technically canon either: (Canon Planet list).
Which I have allowed, because a minor offshoot of the canonical Mandalorians aren't a threat to the NIF storyline (numerous canonical offshoots existed by the way). Nor is the 'Directive'. In the large scale of things, they're utterly irrelevant. The 'Covenant' is a clear threat.
TyrAnazazi wrote:3) Technology levels are very varied.
Which doesn't matter. The fact that 'better' tech exists and is useable - although none of which has been actually specified - is bad enough. As is the existence of an entire separate galactic civilization which can directly interact with us.
TyrAnazazi wrote:5) As to how the Covenant interacts is actually up to how the members of the board roleplay it out. It could become expansionist and militaristic. It may take an isolationist approach. Or it could be somewhere in between.
Which is why I haven't deleted it already. You have taken it on a course of direct collision.
TyrAnazazi wrote:I planned for that on purpose as generally the SW universe and how it will progress is rather set in stone. We know where it will go for the next 100 or so years. The question is how it will get there. The Covenant project is designed such that you actually have a choice of how things develop or progress. I don't know about you but having the ability to really be able to influence the outcome is a nice change.
This is not correct. We have already diverged from SW canon, and we will continue to do so. The NIF storyline draw upon SW canon, but is not limited to it. The 'Covenant' however, has nothing at all to do with it.
TyrAnazazi wrote:7) I am going to cite 1.0.1.3.4 from the Official Rules. Deletion and drastic modifications without at least notifying the individual of what changes and reasons would be cause for complaint. To do so, I may be very much inclined to charge that individual with "godmoding" tyrannical behavior and lack of respect. As per the previous post on board etiquette earlier this year, such an action may be viewed as a direct/serious violation. So, in case that becomes an unaddressable issue and to make sure everyone is clear, that may result in the temporary/permanent leaving of this board. I very much enjoy the privilege and fun here, however, if it becomes clear to me that the respect that I show to everyone else is not mutual then I may need to reevaluate being on this board.
Consider yourself notified. Also:
1.0.1.3.4: Any discrepancy between members or between staff members must be kept outside the website. This does not apply to issues over rule violations between members and staff members.
I've posted this topic because I'm still trying to seek a compromise, if one is at all possible. That option is narrowing with every post I see concerning the 'Covenant', which is why direct interference has become an immediate need.

TyrAnazazi wrote:On that note, this is nothing personal to anyone, especially Kane, Mai or Jubar; as I greatly respect all of you! However, it has been increasingly obvious lately that in certain specific areas, there is a lack of mutual respect and professional etiquette being displayed. For the record, I am aware that I am not the only individual that has an issue with that individual in the certain forum. If you want to know what I am referring to than ask. If not, I am going to assume you either you know or don't care or both (I would like to believe it is the first one).
TyrAnazazi wrote:8) There is are specific reasons for that none of those designs went through IDOMIR. The first is that if you don't understand the basis for something you can't really be a moderator for it. Second, there is increasing concern in the capability in one of those individuals moding IDOMIR to be a fair and reasonable individual. If you don't believe me, use your admin powers and take a look through the chat logs for the last month. Third, these designs were peer reviewed just not in the IDOMIR. Numerous people assisted and reviewed the sections as they were put up. So, with all respect, your statement that they were not peer reviewed is incorrect. Fourthly, all the specs listed are based on and directly correlating to DB values and other SW-Canon specifications.
Your designs may have been looked over in chat, but this is not proper peer review.

If you have problems with a member of this board, I am, as always, willing to arbitrate. Or if you prefer, you can talk to Mai or another mod - Spyker is a Global Moderator.

This is however an issue only tangential at best to the storyline problem of the 'Covenant'. If you believe that one particular IDOMIR mod would not give your designs a fair chance, there's always another IDOMIR mod and the admins available.
TyrAnazazi wrote:I sincerely apologize if this post is read as bit abrasive or negative. However, given that the cat is let out and we are going to have a serious discussion about it, I decided that being upfront and honest would be the best course of action. Again, if anyone's feelings are hurt then I am very deeply sorry about that. Lastly, I would like to reiterate that it is very much an honor and a pleasure to be here. I would not have it any other way! I just felt that if for an open and honest discussion it needed to be started that way.
If I didn't want an open discussion about it, I would not have posted this topic, so at least I am not offended by it.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Jericho Winters » 2011-04-22 20:16

Ace/ Kurge, I'm going to play peacemaker here and ask you both to take a step back from any hostility or conflicts. It's really just obvious to me Kurge's actions/sayings are due to the vast amount of work he's already put into the ideas he's had and doesn't want them to be for naught.

It's only natural for him to be upset initially over the idea of this topic being floated now.

As far as my two cents goes- i'm fine with the 'contamination' in the SW universe due to ONE sole reason or rational. The existence of the homage of gree Hyperspace gates to stargate; While I've repeatedly said to Kurge - Beware 'too crossoverish' I have the utmost respect of an idea of contact with some outside the galaxy race that may have some more in depth detail on the Vong threat if it can be tied into dealing with them later.

Yeah, we all don't like the Vong. But as long as the story "In Galaxy" is simply geared to setting up a means of talking out a oneshot deal for trading information on that threat, then I'm all for it.

I'm of the opinion that after the one thread goes through the NIF 'destroys' or "takes over" the supergate connecting two galaxies and IMEXCO puts an information block in place, leaving them , 'the covenant' confined to their respective galaxy.

Or- finding a third option, maybe even allowing said 'covie' races NIF citizenship so long as they come here as vacationers (though I honestly don't think this should happen often unless Kurge wanted 'tyr' to permanently stay in the Excelsior Galaxy) ;). Why would I leave the 'supergate up?' It's a good way of later transporting a few select people in *rare* cases between ICE and the Excelsior Galaxy if some *highly classified and closed* negotiations allow an agreement for an immigration bureau of some sort to be reached.

This thread, and the conflicts expressed here as always, is based on the idea of trust involved to bear a story along in a fashion that is capable of yielding a finite low- scale result; yet similarly enjoyable to the player base if it's a one shot deal in the Excelsior Galaxy..

As for the tech aspects- I've held my tongue a bit, but have repeatedly taken the hammer to kurge's head in the approach, "in sparest use only as plot devices and story tools."

As I stated, it all comes down to a matter of trust. Trust between staff, and players, and the people running things in a thread. It's perfectly fine in my book to be the 'cautionary voice' but if you do allow kurge to go forwards with a small story plot, then I'd be the first one to put my foot forwards to say I'll be personally taking a sharp look at things to make sure they don't 'balloon' out of control for you.

A Smallll interaction in the excelsior galaxy in my book doesn't completely destroy that, if it leads us to find some intelligence of killing off the Vong later and earlier on then their full scale arrival, buildup, and assault on the rest of the galaxy. Almost directly tying into your stated ideas plan after the last SM we 'encountered' them in, Ace.

That's the compromise I put forward to you both on the table^.

This Excelsior interaction, to me and me alone; just sets up an interesting interim medium as a side play to achieve a step towards that direction.

To sum it all up: my honest opinion- if it's pulled off well it can be an enriching and satisfactory compromise towards previously stated ideas. So long as:

I. Information about the Vong, their fleet's path and current resources is obtained through long range negotiation. The 'Vong' are the rp future threat, not the 'covies'.

II. The taking of the 'supergate' which for a time *should* become offline for a few months in universe- (6-8 at least) and blockaded to allow some ICE development on its own OR to destroy it outright by an armed strike.

IIIa. This above would leave the option of bringing back chars from the ICE galaxy almost instantaneously in the most *secularized and scrutinized fashion* on a case by case basis up to Admin approval.

IIIb. Why would this be on a case by case basis? Because as far as Kurge's ideas he's related towards me go, the entire 'covie' group are going to be brought down a few notches in tech by a massive civil war between the races. Thus leaving their tech at or about Federation standard level of production when the final curtain falls and the last Act plays out.

But, as always- the truth on whether it will be satisfactory to all, and rewarding to the site will come through in the specific manner of the rp as it's played out.


If people can agree to the above objectives being fair in the thread plot- I really don't see much conflicts of interest with the main goal of keeping NIF 'purer' in the sw universe and the main forum of RP.

Thank you all for your time, this is my 2 cents, and my proposal for the 'compromise' which I intended to work a little towards, both OOC with Kurge, and IC with my chars, as the thread continued.

~MM
aka Jericho
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Tycho » 2011-04-22 20:30

I wrote a really long response to this but Firefox ate it when it crashed on me -_- maybe it was for the better. Fortunately, or unfortunately, you now get to read my summary version of the long post I had made:

Full-scale invasion: bad unless approved by majority vote/Kane

Small strike force: good

ICE involvement: good

Rikku's (and the alien race's) abilities: questionable, but a precedent has already been set.

I thought we'd already said no to a Vongese invasion, but Jericho's post has me thinking otherwise. I would not be opposed to a vong invasion, for the record. Just that we have a lot of other stuff going on right now, it'd put everything on hold. Maybe later ;)

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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Jericho Winters » 2011-04-22 20:49

Well after the last time the SM we encountered them, IF I remember right, in the idea was to wrap up the vong in a small scale, preemptive strike. Thus: Not allowing them to make a full scale invasion.

Logically, even if we knew the incoming vectors of the vong 'worldships' it would hopefully be months of CM's before they were in range to strike.

The problem with premptive strikes is that you are required to know where the enemy is, where the enemy's assets are, and the rocks they're hiding under ;) and the vong have some pretty big crevices to crawl through and into if they're still sequesterd out in the unknown regions or on an incoming vector just outside the galaxy proper. Which is the two places in my mind where the battleground to kill them off would take place. ;)

To quote tycho-

Full scale- BAD
Small scale - decent and doable if it leads to Intel on the incoming threat.
ICE- decent if played out right.
Racial abilities- abstainment of opinion.

Though now i'd like to add a.

IV. The destruction/capture/removal of the one present covie ship in the excelsior galaxy currently commanded IC by the covie's version of a 'rogue' commander. This is to limit and destroy the possibility of 'tech contamination.'

It's all up to what the boss man says though.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-22 21:24

Wow! I disappear for an hour and look what happens! :D

I am going to say this and then I promise that I will shut up for a bit.

@Ace:

I sent you a pm but I will do it here too. I apologize that my initial response was annoyed and a bit angry. I do have a lot of work and planning involved. As well as a lot of ideas that I am fairly certain will mesh well with that of the NIF storyline. I understand why you are leery on what is going on. So, I will do you and everyone else who is wondering a favor. (Normally I never give away an idea)

Here is the plan as I have written down in the notebook:

1) Covenant Rising: Introduction of an extragalactic group and the set up for the events leading to an official "First Contact"

2) Covenant Rising Part 2: Here I am setting the stage for a first official contact. Meaning Tyr's capture, maybe in ICE Rikku's incarceration. The goal here is to open the dialogue from the NIF's POV. As such, the NIF has several options on how to deal with the matter. Part of this would be the destruction or capture of the ship Providence from Covenant Rising. So, to summarize, this thread is to set the stage for whatever the NIF would decide.

3) *Not Telling* (Got to keep you guys guessing somehow): In this thread, the goal I envisioned was that the NIF takes whatever actions that it deems are needed. For example, this could be an assault or take over of the SuperGate (aka like a giant Gree Hypergate). At this point, the NIF would have full control of their side of the network. So, you could use this in a future ICE thread to contact or help ICE. Or you could use this as a means to acquire or trade for information (as Jericho stated) on the YV.

4) Every thread after #3 is entirely subjective. As it would depend on what choices or actions are taken in the previous.

Jericho wrote:Well after the last time the SM we encountered them, IF I remember right, in the idea was to wrap up the vong in a small scale, preemptive strike. Thus: Not allowing them to make a full scale invasion.

The problem with premptive strikes is that you are required to know where the enemy is, where the enemy's assets are, and the rocks they're hiding under ;) and the vong have some pretty big crevices to crawl through and into if they're still sequesterd out in the unknown regions or on an incoming vector just outside the galaxy proper. Which is the two places in my mind where the battleground to kill them off would take place.
That was indeed the plan or suggestion that Ace made (IC/OOC). However, as just stated it would require knowing where and when to strike. So, unless you are planning to have ICE randomly run into the YV, which wouldn't technically be even remotely likely. Then you kinda have a bit of a problem. The two possibilities as mentioned are gain information and preemptive strike or use it to stop the invasion in its tracks early. All depends on what people want to do and what they can realistically pull off.

To conclude, I like Jericho's suggestion the best. If you are worried about me being moderated, I can think of none better than Jericho. As I do plenty of threads with him using my other characters (Kurge, Maximus and Manfred) we have a good working relationship. Of course, that is how I see it and it is Ace's call. If it helps at all, I have done a lot of the back checking with Fini as well. If it is agreeable and that if people wish that it continues, I would be happy to have Jericho's Fini's Jacen's [if he is alive ;) ] and Spyker's assistance or moderating. As those individuals are the people I work well with.

One last thing:
Jericho wrote:IIIb. Why would this be on a case by case basis? Because as far as Kurge's ideas he's related towards me go, the entire 'covie' group are going to be brought down a few notches in tech by a massive civil war between the races. Thus leaving their tech at or about Federation standard level of production when the final curtain falls and the last Act plays out.

But, as always- the truth on whether it will be satisfactory to all, and rewarding to the site will come through in the specific manner of the rp as it's played out.
Jericho, thanks for the comment. Normally I would jokingly fop you for this... ;)

Humor aside, that is part of the plan that I have. In actuality, it would be the only thing I got set in stone. There will be a Civil War, and a fracturing of the Covenant Alliance. The costs and carnage would be very large and encompassing. There will be several species wiped out. A couple or so that are set back to the bronze/iron age. Those left standing will be in a weakened state and relatively on par with the NIF in capability. This was my idea of setting a good and less hostile environment for ICE and the NIF. As we all agree, it is much easier coming to terms with one or two regional powers than a powerful coalition.

All I can say is that the rp that I have in mind will be very good. However, it does require the help and the work of other people on this board. Which was the intent behind it from the start.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-22 22:05

I already replied to Kurge's PM, but I'm going to take this as that he wants to discuss a solution in the open.

I' just going to include some of my own quotes from that PM for clarity. First:
Kane wrote:I understand that you feel for your creation and don't want it threatened. That's quite natural. You could say that I'm doing exactly the same thing, except from the other end.
Kane wrote:So, basic problems; 1) ease of interaction. 2) size and scope. 3) tech level.

Each of these problems balance with each other. If we're talking about the Mandalarans, which you brought up (and isn't the first to do so), we have easy interaction by means of hyperdrive, even though their home system is not so simple to reach if you're intruding. As for 2) they're very small compared to the larger galactic civilizations, and for 3) they started out somewhat below galactic par and is about the same now.

So as to the question 'what did you have in mind?', depends on the factors, which is why I must return the question and ask what you would like to keep and what you can leave aside - with the above balance in mind.

That same balance is also why I haven't raised any question earlier about the tech posted. It's not just about what it is, it's just as much about what you do with it, what others could do with it, and the consequences of both.
I take it that the 'supergate', although it seems like a regular hypergate to me, is the Covenants only way into our galaxy? If one can say that a hypergate is regular, since they were all inactive for many milennia. That doesn't entirely remove the problem however, because we'll have the gate, and may be able to simply hyperdrive into theirs. This point needs to be sorted out. I can think of several possibilities, but I'm going to wait for yours first.

It's a good start at least, because that addresses 1) ease of interaction. If this part can be solved, I may not need to touch any others.

This discussion is not about the Vong; that's entirely tangential. But I'll say this much; the Vong are currently in intergalactic space, slowly moving their small initial invasion force towards us. Their former home, the Vong galaxy, was devastated by war between the Silentium and the Abominor and the Vong. All three races left it because it's wasted. Perhaps ICE will find the remains of these civilizations or even scattered survivors, but the galaxy itself is a non-issue. We don't require the Covenant to find out about any of these, by the way.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Jericho Winters » 2011-04-22 22:31

I'll just chime in on the difference between the 'supergate' and the regular hypergate things on the tech side. As stated before on the racial 'tech' abilities involving things like the ME universe- I'm abstaining.

Supergates are just really* really* Really* large hypergates large enough that a decent sized ship can pass through. Think of them having the cirumference of a small moon and you get the picture better then the idea of a 'hypergate' being a single 30 foot portal to another world.

Pros- Defensively speaking, there is an insanely large power requirements take a long time for a recharge after several gates in a short amount of time. This means- you can pretty much if your quick on the draw, keep out an enemy for the longest period of time and let things stay dormant as it recharges.

Cons- must be used sparingly becuse of previously stated large power needs. however, you could send a ship of a reasonably large size through if necessary with a 'care package' to ICE if necessary..."


For 2) size and scope

Size and scale were pretty much already brought forwards with the idea of small scale interaction better then large. Unless your talking about how big the 'covies' stuff really is, As far as my mind views them- they're pretty much like ME's group of coucil races, large in physical troop numbers as they're militaries are strictly controlled and regulated- but still limited to less then 1 percent of their home galaxies systems.

You'd need kurge to further define this and the following.

1. As for the actual 'friendly' interaction- only one race out of the entire set may have a realistic chance of surviving to interact after their civil war .

Ease of interaction- for any excelsior galaxy civilization beyond the NIF to interact with them- difficult to get to. . Logically as long as the civil war between the groups goes haywire the nif *wouldn't* want to interact with them until things settle down to a clear victor, a victor who would have clear control over their side of the supergate.

This is because hypergates in the SGU only act one way at a specific time. In or out.

Want to shut someone out of coming to our galaxy? Constantly dial into their gate.
Want to prevent them from coming to your gate and screwing your worlds up? Bury your gate, or put a shield over it to kill any ships coming through- it's safety functions won't allow it to open.

As far as I'm really concerned comparitive to the tech kurge has and the NIF. If you really look at it big picture, the civilian ME and Halo tech he drew from, all of it is about 5000 years back in the Old Republic Era. It's the scraps he drew from Stargate's 'ancients' which pose the real issue here.

It's just in the problem areas such as weapons , and "ME" manipulations of 'mass effect' fields which rely in that universe the principle of manipulations of 'dark matter'.

Star wars is already insanely efficient in it's experiments in dark matter, the stuff all ME uses as the basis of its technology and if it really wanted to could reproduce said effects if at insanely high costs, purely with technology, if it was on a much larger scale. Say tank sized comparative to 'implants in a 'human sized body.'

The problem is- there's not much of it in the Excelsior galaxy and hypermatter is far cheaper to obtain despite the enormous risks of gaining it.

Which means- the ME side just has better minituarization in the specific areas of gravitic manipulation using 'dark energy' as manipulations, and less capacity overall in their heaviest weapon strength though greater capacity in shielding and defense. Slightly better power production, yet less engine efficiency, with almost equal standard armament comparing turbos to Magnetic accelerated rounds.

The weapons of the Cove in haloverse, and the Gun in ME-2 are roughly analguous to one of your fifty percent powered HPG being fired on a similar scale. the haloverse using cov ships to 'glass a planet.' And those Haloverse ships usually only fielded one of such weapon each. The difference is Haloverse is energy like the HPG, and the ME is an actual physical magnetic accelerator round surrounded by high energy plasma contained in a shielded 'bullet' that was designed to pinpointly pierce through a ships shield and explode once in contact with the hull.

I honestly, dispute the claim from Kurge his covenant tech is any better then the SWU's. I just view It's just different in its ability for minituarization in specific high energy fields of study, and less efficient in the weapons session, by this, I mean a lower rate of fire.

SW tech realistically should get at least 2:1 on the shots ratio, it's just the Highest end cov weapons seem to have a harder hit then the standard turbos we have on ships, but we have more turbos to fire off more volleys then they could send in our direction.

For range- realistically the Covie ships are designed for close in your face rip the guts out of the enemy, with killing ships in one shot, and their long range armament doesn't pack enough punch to whittle down our side's shields successively. 1:1 they can overpower a vessel by simply getting close enough to them. While we could just hang back and take potshots until they're stuff is dead. The way the covenant side of ships get into range- pinpoint microjumps usually, at a better caliber of accuracy then Imps. Very similar to the way the ang'tai or however it's spelled >.> ships do.

I abstain on the implants giving the racial abilities issues, as I've said before.

I've also repeatedly boxed his ears, that if any player, myself included came up with a theoretical way to kill anything that was plausible to the best of *that player's* knowledge, then it's best for kurge to let such things stand unless there's a flagrant GMing factor.

Period, case in point.
Kane wrote: This discussion is not about the Vong; that's entirely tangential. But I'll say this much; the Vong are currently in intergalactic space, slowly moving their small initial invasion force towards us. Their former home, the Vong galaxy, was devastated by war between the Silentium and the Abominor and the Vong. All three races left it because it's wasted. Perhaps ICE will find the remains of these civilizations or even scattered survivors, but the galaxy itself is a non-issue. We don't require the Covenant to find out about any of these, by the way
No, but its good fluff. ;) and that's information can be construed as a gesture of goodwill for peace by their side before the 'supagate' is shut down for a few months to let things develop there if you let it.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-23 00:03

Jericho Winters wrote:I'll just chime in on the difference between the 'supergate' and the regular hypergate things on the tech side. As stated before on the racial 'tech' abilities involving things like the ME universe- I'm abstaining.

Supergates are just really* really* Really* large hypergates large enough that a decent sized ship can pass through. Think of them having the cirumference of a small moon and you get the picture better then the idea of a 'hypergate' being a single 30 foot portal to another world.

Pros- Defensively speaking, there is an insanely large power requirements take a long time for a recharge after several gates in a short amount of time. This means- you can pretty much if your quick on the draw, keep out an enemy for the longest period of time and let things stay dormant as it recharges.

Cons- must be used sparingly becuse of previously stated large power needs. however, you could send a ship of a reasonably large size through if necessary with a 'care package' to ICE if necessary..."
Hypergates, or for that matter Infinity Gates, aren't just the typical archways. Some were in space. But let's call it a supergate for now.

The circumference of a small moon is much more than what is needed to send through a single ship unless we're talking Death Stars. 'Insanely large power requirements' is not a limitation as far as SW technology goes. Plus of course, there's the yet to be addressed method of hyperdriving the distance.

Fortunately, hyperdrives are perfect means of transportation as far as storytelling goes. It is literally a 'speed of plot' device. For instance, Palpatine went from Coruscant to Mustafar in the time it took for Anakin to lay there burning. That's possibly billions of times lightspeed. On the other end of the spectrum, one book put it as 125 times lightspeed when pushing it. It may be possible to utilize this to fit our plot; I already had to apply it to ICE. There is also the political limitation which may be even more useful - ICE is unprecedented, after all.

It seems like a weak plot point to go the route along 'we just don't feel like it', however. Feelings can change.
Jericho Winters wrote:Unless your talking about how big the 'covies' stuff really is, As far as my mind views them- they're pretty much like ME's group of coucil races, large in physical troop numbers as they're militaries are strictly controlled and regulated- but still limited to less then 1 percent of their home galaxies systems.
Much less than that I hope. The Milky Way is a relatively large spiral galaxy at an estimated 400 billion stars (quite possibly much more), and many may have several planets. 1% of a very large number is still a very large number.
Jericho Winters wrote:This is because hypergates in the SGU only act one way at a specific time. In or out.
That's SGU stargates. It may serve as Kurge's inspiration in this case, but it doesn't necessarily apply to hypergates or infinity gates. Still, it might be useful to adopt that limitation here.
Jericho Winters wrote:It's just in the problem areas such as weapons , and "ME" manipulations of 'mass effect' fields which rely in that universe the principle of manipulations of 'dark matter'.

Star wars is already insanely efficient in it's experiments in dark matter, and if it really wanted to could reproduce said effects if at insanely high costs, purely with technology, if it was on a much larger scale. Say tank sized comparative to 'implants in a 'human sized body.'
Assuming you're talking about biotic implants, equivalent technology is already present in SW. Replusor implants are incredibly rare, but not because the tech is anything special. Repulsor and force field tech is omnipresent in all sizes and implants are common, after all. Repulsor discs and Bao-Dur's repulsor fist comes to mind. There's also the advanced stabilizer gloves, and small tractor beams used for lifting/loading. If you ask me why they're so rare, I would say it's because such implants would draw the immediate unwanted attention from Jedi/Sith, plus it's easier to pull a trigger or have a droid lift things for you.

That doesn't mean that an extragalactic character should automatically be allowed to bypass our limitations for starting characters, however.
Jericho Winters wrote:Which means- the ME side just has better minituarization in the specific areas of gravitic manipulation using 'dark energy' as manipulations, and less capacity overall in their heaviest weapon strength though greater capacity in shielding and defense. Slightly better power production, yet less engine efficiency, with almost equal standard armament comparing turbos to Magnetic accelerated rounds.

The weapons of the Cove in haloverse, and the Gun in ME-2 are roughly analguous to one of your fifty percent powered HPG being fired on a similar scale. the haloverse using cov ships to 'glass a planet.' And those Haloverse ships usually only fielded one of such weapon each. The difference is Haloverse is energy like the HPG, and the ME is an actual physical magnetic accelerator round surrounded by high energy plasma contained in a shielded 'bullet' that was designed to pinpointly pierce through a ships shield and explode once in contact with the hull.
If we're talking canonical Mass Effect and Halo, they have vastly inferior power production. 3-5 MAC rounds destroy a Covenant ship, and they're (64.5 kilotons each, I did the math. That was much less than I remembered even). Venator point defence ion cannons are listed at 10 megatons - although one should be quick to point out that kinetic weapons and energy weapons can't be compared straight off. Munificient-class frigates have two heavy turbolasers in the petaton range, and they're just support ships. Mass Effect Dreadnoughts has a main gun accelerator worth 38 kilotons of kinetic energy, and there's less than a hundred of them.

But we're not talking canon ME or Halo, are we.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Rannek Ceth » 2011-04-23 00:49

As one of the members involved in “Covenant Rising” I suppose I should state my case on this issue as well. First of all, let me say that I respect the work that Kurge has done in trying to create a unified sci-fi universe of sorts. However, I feel that I need to make it clear that I am typically the kind of person who very much prefers to keep my diverse fan interests separate from one another, so while I respect the time and effort that Kurge has put into the “Covenant” I don’t know if I fully agree that such an amalgam universe really needed to be created in the first place.

I can say that overall I am pretty familiar with the sources Kurge has drawn from thus far, and I’m glad to see that others share my taste in fandom at least :lol:. To be perfectly honest though, as I’ve stated, I’ve always been somewhat wary of the idea of a large-scale cross-over between the Star Wars universe and any other sci-fi franchise. I know that before I got involved in the “Covenant Rising” thread, I talked with Kurge in chat about the implications of bringing in material from such diverse sources (Though I admit that my concerns probably weren’t articulated so clearly at the time). In the end I decided to put aside my concerns about the matter and have some fun with the idea. Let me say that I for one am glad that I got involved in “Covenant Rising”. I don’t think I’m speaking out of turn by saying that all three of us involved in the thread had a good time with it.

Now, much of my initial concern had to do with the very issue that is being discussed here, in that we aren’t talking about a straight cross-over from one source to another, which can be problematic in itself, but what we are dealing with is bits and pieces that inspired Kurge to create a combination of cultures and technology. In my opinion, none of the races or groups from the original source material Kurge drew from are any match for the kind of technology and power that have been seen in the Star Wars universe. (With perhaps the exception of the Ancients from the Stargate franchise, but even with this group I’m on the fence as to whether their technological accomplishments outshine those of the Star Wars universe). Kurge, however, has implied that the Covenant is in fact technologically superior to the major powers of the Star Wars universe.

That being said, I think that if it were to come down to it, I would really have to agree with Kane when it comes to preserving the feel of Star Wars, if not necessarily the strict “canonicity” of the universe (even as a newer member I can see where the NIF has diverged from the official “history” of Star Wars). I don’t know that having the Covenant become a greater influence would be advantageous to the forums as a whole. As side stories (Secondary Missions) involving members on a volunteer basis, I don’t see much harm in it (And in fact I would like to encourage the creativity and enthusiasm that Kurge has shown in this endeavor). I don’t, however, believe that it would be a good idea to bring a completely new galactic society, with what seems to be very different technological/developmental rules, into a conflict/trade relationship with the known Star Wars universe at this time.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Jericho Winters » 2011-04-23 01:43

kane wrote:That doesn't mean that an extragalactic character should automatically be allowed to bypass our limitations for starting characters, however.
Not disagreeing with you there. I'm just saying I abstain on the point of the 'racial abilities' through implants, etc.
Kane wrote: If we're talking canonical Mass Effect and Halo, they have vastly inferior power production. 3-5 MAC rounds destroy a Covenant ship, and they're (64.5 kilotons each, I did the math. That was much less than I remembered even). Venator point defence ion cannons are listed at 10 megatons - although one should be quick to point out that kinetic weapons and energy weapons can't be compared straight off. Munificient-class frigates have two heavy turbolasers in the petaton range, and they're just support ships. Mass Effect Dreadnoughts has a main gun accelerator worth 38 kilotons of kinetic energy, and there's less than a hundred of them.

But we're not talking canon ME or Halo, are we.
Actually ;) We Are. The one thing that differs techwise in kurge's 'covies' that gives them any chance of approaching standard is what Rannek pointed out and what was referred by me in the prior post:
As far as I'm really concerned comparitive to the tech kurge has and the NIF. If you really look at it big picture, the civilian ME and Halo tech he drew from, all of it is about 5000 years back in the Old Republic Era. It's the scraps he drew from Stargate's 'ancients' which pose the real issue here.
The 'scraps' from the stargate ancients being the dreaded Z.P.M's , frankly it just serves as an 'equalizer' in my mind for them to approach standard damage with older style weapons systems.

I already said- I personally disputed and disagreed with the idea that they were more powerful, or had greater tech. Even if Kurge believes they do. My one thing from countless discussions with Devan (who knows far more then I on some of the particulars) is that- SW still pawns them hands down. Except in the use of the Z.P. M's - they can go along ways towards evening out the curve.

As for the crossover issues, I've repeatedly tried to ask Kurge to find ways to not make it 'too crossoverish.'

And I actually messed up on the size of the supergate. Scale is very hard to consider when you're going on memories of tv shows.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-23 02:51

Rannek, you may still consider yourself the new kid on the block, but that was very neatly put.
Jericho Winters wrote:Actually ;) We Are. The one thing that differs techwise in kurge's 'covies' that gives them any chance of approaching standard is what Rannek pointed out and what was referred by me in the prior post:
Seriously? I intended to handle any crossover attempts techwise myself - as mentioned in ICE planning - because the disparity is generally immense when you use straight canon. Previous examples for instance.
Jericho Winters wrote:The 'scraps' from the stargate ancients being the dreaded Z.P.M's , frankly it just serves as an 'equalizer' in my mind for them to approach standard damage with older style weapons systems.
That is certainly true, in so far that SG ZPM's represents power generation far, far above what Halo or ME can muster. There's no exact number for ZPM's, but we're talking superlaser comparisons here, except in a nice and tidy small package. Although ZPMs were both very rare and irreplaceable, hardly something you'd power everyday ships with.
Jericho Winters wrote:And I actually messed up on the size of the supergate. Scale is very hard to consider when you're going on memories of tv shows.
400 m in diameter. That's enough size for say a medium cruiser to go through, but not ICE. Powering it with a singularity is certainly doable, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

I'm just keeping conversation at this point, we'll have to wait for Kurge to show up.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Tavish McFini » 2011-04-23 04:30

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, or maybe I have a bigger ego than I give myself credit for, but I can't help but feel the timing of this thread makes me think that my latest post in
Covenant Rising: Part 2 "The Curtain Opens" has somehow given rise to the aforementioned concerns... Just seems that, had I not posted, this thread might not have appeared to begin with?

Anyways, tell me I'm still crazy and I'm good. I'm going to abstain from further comment on the matter though for a few different reasons but mostly because I'm going to keep myself out of this conflict as much as possible.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-23 06:33

Wow! I disappear to play DOW2: Retribution for a couple of hours and there is more activity in this thread than on the board for the last 3 weeks. What is wrong with you people?! ;) I am totally joking!

One thing that I will say: Fini's post is because I asked for his help in that thread. He very graciously said that he would see what he could do. So, I accept all the blame for that, if it is the case. Also @Fini: This would technically not be a conflict. More of a beneficial discussion on the question. So, relax buddy! :)

I have the feeling from catching up that there are a lot of questions hanging around in the air. So, for starters, Thank you Jericho for covering!

Jericho is correct in the mechanics from what I read. The supergate is a large ring-like device. The picture is here: Supergate. Yes if anyone notices, I did borrow that from EVE Online. It is a much better picture than the others I found to look like I wanted. Now, this ring is large enough for a dreadnought to pass through. Since, all I have the DB, I am not going to speculate on the diameter. The connections are only one way. Meaning in the direction of dialing. In other words, just like what you see from SG. I did that on purpose to limit the network. The power requirements are very large. As such, they can be powered by black holes or other large energetic phenomenon like a pulsar. The gate on the SW galaxy side is the only one on that side and is closer to the NIF than NR, did that on purpose too. The winglike projections have a small habitable space if needed. However, they primarily serve as energy collectors, emplacements for weapons and defensive hardpoints. The defenses of these are not going to be a big problem for the average heavy cruiser. In short, think something like a Venator. That is as much defensive/offensive power as it has.

Pros:
Large and able to transport full-sized capital ships
'Adequately' defended
Can remain inactive for extremely long periods of time
Able to be easily modified to prevent unwanted visitors

Cons:
Large
Very costly to build
One-way traffic
Require large amounts of power to use
Strategically valuable (could be a pro, but put it here)

Sorry to dash that happy look, but I wasn't using canon ME or Halo power figures. I was using SW power figures. Now, that said, the ME style weapons would really be no different than the mass-drivers on a Keldabe battleship. So, that is really all you have to worry about with respect to that.

Now, as to ship combat, since that was already brought up. Covenant ships are either extreme range or close range warships. Their order of battle is below. To break down their order of preference from most to least: close , medium, long and extreme long range. A good way to think about it is that at long and extreme range the Covenant acts like an archer firing arrows. Firing precision shots that are targeting 'weak' spots; such as reactor bulbs, weapons, shields, command-decks, etc. They do not like staying at long range as their fast and hard hitting munitions are kinetic energy based and have no additional warhead. At long range (entry turbolaser range) the Covenant has a distinct disadvantage. Their missiles are the only things able to reach the enemy cost-effectively, yet are not as damaging as turbos are, even if the missiles bypass the shields. Medium range is where the Covenant starts to get their edge back. Here we have the energy weapons start to really come into their own. The energy weapons have very good accuracy and precision as well as the most hitting power at this point. The only exception is the SL (solid-light) weapons that able to engage at most any range, yet are not a common item as plasma weapons are cheaper hard hitting and faster ROF. SL weapons are the most powerful but suffer the most from the effects of jamming as the range increases (not efficient to use beyond medium range as a general rule). Medium range will also see the deployment of the drone-hybrid weapons (SG based). These weapons have a good advantage at being a hybrid and packing a warhead capability. The downside is that they are less powerful than proton torpedoes, still require good placement. At close range you would see the plasma cannonades/torpedoes be first used. These are practically worthless beyond close range.

Covenant Standard Fleet Order of Battle:
1) Open at extreme range [~15 light-minutes] with KKMs (kinetic kill missiles)
2) Range is reduced to medium range, energy weapons and drone-hybrid projectiles are deployed
3) Close Range, plasma torpedoes etc are used to full effect

As to the ZPM like devices that I have written. Those are equivalent to those at least in concept. I more of saw it as a good way to avoid the whole need fuel thing, at first. Then I had a better idea. So, to not be too hyper, the devices could be made to interface with the NIF tech. However it would be difficult to do at first. That said, it serves mostly as a good gem or goodie that Mai or Jubar could put in as a possible reward. Now, that said, as to the Covenant (Eldorrin specifically) they could produce more the devices. However, as you will probably guess from the pm I sent to you (Ace) it won't be very high on their list of production quota. That said, you can count that only two things would be using them for a very long time (the Citadel and Atlantis); assuming the latter is still intact. Overall, the Covenant vessels are using powerplants not that different from those of the SW galaxy. That is why I specified the device as an upgrade not a default system.

The abilities section that Jericho mentioned is in the process of a rewrite. As I am currently trying to get a hold of Mai. As she indicated that she would be happy to help me out with that. What I will say is that I am discussing with her two ideas that I came up with. One is more biological and would be considered buried or forgotten. The other is a technological thing. Till I get in touch with Mai, I am going to leave that alone. If that is fine with everyone else. Since, I kinda hate doing something on an idea that isn't even in a 'working' format.

Since there seems to be a lot of discussion of where the technological lines are, I will quickly try and clarify that.

In order from most to least:

1-Eldorrin (Well above NIF/NR standards but not even close to Celestial, have lots of lost tech and stuff lying around)
2-Myrderi (This group is roughly on par with Galactic standard)
3-Lekgolo (Slightly below galactic standard, ~par with the Mandalarans)
4-Sangheili (roughly the same as the Mandalarans)
5-Jiralhanae (Well below galactic standard)
6-Shao'Lin [Humans] (Well below galactic standard, equivocal to the Jiralhanae)

So, to clarify, the only two that are remotely able to challenge the NIF or NR are the Eldorrin and the Myderi. The Eldorrin, as I mentioned to Jericho, are very much not interference, isolationist and pretty much keep to themselves. In fact, they would like nothing better than to do that if they could. The Myrderi on the other hand are very aggressive, expansionist and generally hostile. So, as you can imagine, the Eldorrin would go back to their happy guard their own interests if the Myrderi problem was solved... So, that would pretty much limit or even eliminate the worry of degree of interaction. As all the interaction would require the NIF or ICE to initiate. That said, they will be aggressive if invaded and retake their territory up to the initial boundary.

If there are any specific questions or concerns I am glad to answer them. So far, Jericho has done a marvelous job of helping me out. I really appreciate it! I guess all those conversations and working through my ideas with Jericho, have paid off :D
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kallila Tsarati » 2011-04-23 07:45

I wanted to reply to this thread earlier, but I had a lot to do and now look at it! I've not read this fully, so if I miss something important or repeat something that has already been said, I apologize. But I have a lot going on right now and I don't have time read everything. I'm really sorry about that. I feel like there are some egos and feelings riding on this discussion and thus it deserves more attention than I can give it right now.

But let me make a few things clear:

1: I'm backing Ace 100%, which has been my position on this whole venture since it's creation. Had it been left to me I would have vetoed the Covenant before it ever got started. This is a Star Wars site and I want it to remain that. I'm not interested in introducing a lot of outside races and tech. When new people join, I want them to think "Star Wars!" and just start writing. They shouldn't have to study up on a lot of unique stuff we made up just because we want to. I want this place to be clean and easy to interface with for new people... ESPECIALLY since we've been hurting for so many years now. All that said, if the direction Ace wants to take includes these sort of major changes, I'll support him. I won't like it one bit, and I won't be quiet about it. But I will support him.

2: ICE is my show. At least it is until Ace decides to replace me. Until then, I'm the gate keeper. Kurge, you mentioned plans in your coming threads that involve some sort of first official contact with ICE. You have never cleared anything like that with me. I have zero intentions to do anything like that. I don't want ICE to become a vehicle for your brainchild... but your creation is so technologically advanced that you KNOW a meeting with them would utterly consume ICE's story. How could it not? I'm not interested. Story ideas involving deep space exploration are limitless, and I think that's the main reason most people were interested in ICE to begin with. As best I can I want to keep it going in that direction. If you have plans for ICE, you're welcome to pitch them to me, but I'm not likely to jump on anything involving running into technologically super-advanced races anytime soon, if at all.

3: I let you bring Rikku along for ICE because you told me Ace has given you the green light on your plans. I told you, if you recall, that so long as Ace is okay with it then all right, but any decision Ace makes will affect Rikku. Well, it sounds to me like Ace told you not to involve this stuff with anything canon in NIF. Bringing Rikku in ICE violates that, as Ace pointed out. I'm not necessarily telling you to drop Rikku out. But I am reminding you that Rikku is one person. Covenant tech and so forth is not included in that deal. I noticed already that you have some kind of "forming bow" or some such, I'm guessing an energy bow? Even that makes me suspicious and not like it much. That's bordering on a lightsabre-bow of some kind. But don't let that distract you from the main point. The main point here is that bringing Rikku along affords you nothing over any other ICE character. You're going to have to use the same tech as everyone else.

I'll be watching this discussion with interest. But when it comes to counting votes, I cast mine against rolling the Covenant in and mixing it our storyline. I don't even want the Vong in here, and THAT's canon. But I'd sooner have them than the Covenant. Nothing personal against you Kurge, of course. I respect the work and energy you put into this stuff. I just don't think it's the direction I'd like to see NIF take.

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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-23 11:38

All right, this gives me a bit more to work with. Let me start by saying to McFini, you have no blame. I intervened because I felt things were getting to a critical point, and from what Kurge tells us, he was taking the plot towards 'first contact', which was indeed part of the plan for 'Covenant Rising'. With or without your post, it would have come to this.

That goes for all members. We, as admins, have the option to outright refuse material from the get go. You were allowed to continue. No one is blamed for the posting done, not even Kurge for making the Covenant in the first place. It would certainly have made my life easier if I had been part of the process from the get go, but there you have it. We operate on a 'we'll tell you when to stop', not a 'you don't do anything we don't tell you' policy.

My concern is to limit any harm done to the NIF main storyline. Mai tells us that she don't want the Covenant to become the overshadowing focus for the ICE storyline, with the exact same reasons I have. ICE was the only part in which I could see partial crossovers even possible, but the intention was to fill it with original content.

It would certainly be easiest to just delete and move on. But that would, I think, be a disservice not only to Kurge, but those of our members who have participated in this experiment and enjoyed it. Let's give it a shot and see if we can salvage something, it's pointless to go over what has or might have been.

So let's get down to specifics. First of all, a large space nation is by default going to take up much of the ICE storyline, x100 when we're talking equivalent technology. I can contain this problem for the NIF if functional supergates simply don't exist in the SW galaxy, even better if none can be built. See, my problem isn't just keeping the Covenant out, it's keeping the NIF in. I'm not sure how I can allow even one supergate open. We can run it indefinitely, so we could trade any amount we want with the other side aliens, and there's always the possibility of ICE finding another so we could re-direct it there. Setting up off-galaxy colonies with instant access would be a trivial matter.

ICE has no such help.

ZPMs definitely has to go as buildable devices. That's way, way over the top. Extremely rare irreplaceable relics with a limited life span? Barely doable.

Okay, so it seems that all the remaining problems is in ICE's corner then. There's multiple problems at work. The first being that ICE hasn't done any research or exploration at all yet, yet here's a huge galactic nation just dropping into their knees? That's cutting things very short.

Next up. While ICE is supposed to eventually find aliens which they can work with, perhaps even an alien nation they could be on friendly terms with, introducing the Covenant is equal parts too much, too early, and too advanced. Triply so when looking at the crossover aspect.

Although he didn't say so, I get the impression that Kurge doesn't want to give out the details of certain plot point he's told me about, so I'll keep that for now. He's also told me that he will be scarce for the next two weeks, so perhaps we can't work out a solution yet.

Just as a reminder, a solution hinges on the balance of 1) ease of interaction. 2) size and scope. 3) tech level.

1) is problematic. Super- and hypergates aside, ICE can simply fly where it wants. 2) is even worse. Even if, say, a large war breaks out in the Covenant and ICE wants to stay out of harms way, the sheer size of the Covenant makes it a superior concern. 3) is a nightmare.

As an example, if we were talking something like the Mass Effect galaxy, their relative weakness would mean that ICE has nothing to gain from them aside from research, raw materials and possibly willing recruits. In the same manner, ICE has nothing to fear from any aggression of theirs. In short, even with several large nations, all the cards would be in ICE's hands, allowing us to play out any scenario we want.

Perhaps Kurge can address some of 1) and 3) with his planned scenario, but 2) remains a problem, even though he means to reduce it. It could be worked around given that ICE can go where it wants, but the danger remains that a whole galaxy full of advanced aliens will overshadow anything else ICE might do.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-23 19:41

{Just to make sure everyone knows I am going to be very in and out...so it make take a bit for me to get through all the questions etc}

Mai, you made that very clear to begin with. Also, I knew from our previous discussion when you made your opinion very clear on the matter. I respect that and try to keep that in mind with all the stuff I put up in ICE. Just to remind who, Rikku is pretty much only going to be doing what is normal for her "cover" and would obviously not include really any Eldorrin/Covenant technology. FYI, I wrote some of the posts before I had done the editing after our discussion. As such, I honestly forgot to go and edit some of the content. Which I will be doing...later today.
Kane wrote:All right, this gives me a bit more to work with. Let me start by saying to McFini, you have no blame. I intervened because I felt things were getting to a critical point, and from what Kurge tells us, he was taking the plot towards 'first contact', which was indeed part of the plan for 'Covenant Rising'. With or without your post, it would have come to this.

That goes for all members. We, as admins, have the option to outright refuse material from the get go. You were allowed to continue. No one is blamed for the posting done, not even Kurge for making the Covenant in the first place. It would certainly have made my life easier if I had been part of the process from the get go, but there you have it. We operate on a 'we'll tell you when to stop', not a 'you don't do anything we don't tell you' policy.

My concern is to limit any harm done to the NIF main storyline. Mai tells us that she don't want the Covenant to become the overshadowing focus for the ICE storyline, with the exact same reasons I have. ICE was the only part in which I could see partial crossovers even possible, but the intention was to fill it with original content.

It would certainly be easiest to just delete and move on. But that would, I think, be a disservice not only to Kurge, but those of our members who have participated in this experiment and enjoyed it. Let's give it a shot and see if we can salvage something, it's pointless to go over what has or might have been.

So let's get down to specifics. First of all, a large space nation is by default going to take up much of the ICE storyline, x100 when we're talking equivalent technology. I can contain this problem for the NIF if functional supergates simply don't exist in the SW galaxy, even better if none can be built. See, my problem isn't just keeping the Covenant out, it's keeping the NIF in. I'm not sure how I can allow even one supergate open. We can run it indefinitely, so we could trade any amount we want with the other side aliens, and there's always the possibility of ICE finding another so we could re-direct it there. Setting up off-galaxy colonies with instant access would be a trivial matter.

ICE has no such help.
That sounds good and reasonable to me! :)
Kane wrote:ZPMs definitely has to go as buildable devices. That's way, way over the top. Extremely rare irreplaceable relics with a limited life span? Barely doable.
Ace, I am probably correctly reading this comment that such a ability would be a issue. I agree with you on that. However, there is something that probably needs to be clarified. Since, I didn't expect you or anyone else to really read everything, I am going to quickly quote the sections that refer to this:
Kurge: Covenant: Eldorrin wrote:The Zero Point Rector (ZPR) is a derivative of the quantum capacitor. These devices make use of taping, producing and storing zero point energy from subspace and realspace sources. Black holes and stars were found to be perfect sources for recharging. These modules are usually 4 meters long x 2 meters in diameter. These devices are able to be used instead of or in conjunction with singularity cores. Most ships are capable of having a ZPR plugged into the power distribution grid. In terms of power this is an alternative power-source to the singularity cores and their SW equivalents. The downside is that these are also more expensive to manufacture. As a result it is also expensive to 'upgrade' the existing fleet ships. The advantages are a much smaller package allowing for more power per volume. In addition, it is also much more stable in comparison.

Since, according to the most conservative estimates, at least 75% of the total mass-energy in the universe is dark energy. The result that came of the resultant research and engineering is the Dark Energy Module (DEM). The energy is stored in special devices that are usually only 4 meters long an 3 meters in diameter, cylindrical-cone shaped. The energy is directly harnessed from dark energy sources in both normal and subspace. Black holes and wormholes were found to be the best normal space sources of dark energy. One DEM stores a phenomenal amount of energy, exceeding the capabilities of most hypermatter reactors on board Excelsior Galaxy ships. It can tap the appropriate dimension of subspace or other source to recharge when needed. The recharge process can take a couple of weeks or more depending on several factors. Small or subcapital ships are not usually fitted with a DEM due to cost/risk reasons. Most warships are capable of having at least two ready for use and one in reserve. Dreadnoughts, are able to have at least four.
Now as you can see there are technically two different types of modules. One is well, more like the SG ZPM the other not at all. In addition, you might have noticed that I made them a lot larger than a ZPM is. ZPMs are ~0.5m in length and about 20-25 cm in diameter at the top. Since, I know someone is going to ask this: What is a quantum capacitor (QC)? That is your standard civilian reactor paired with a energy storage unit or capacitor. The capacitor acts like that battery-thingie that Ace R&D awhile ago. It can be charged like your RL cell phone or charged with excess or unused power. A singularity core is my codename for a hypermatter reactor. Since, I thought that having it not sound too SW, as to do so, would be detrimental to that it is my idea/concept.

Moving on, the size I have is for a specific reason. So, here is how the devices work and that should at least be nice to know for those of you that are engineers like me. The devices are essentially a two part device like the QC I just described. The core is a form of hyperspace/subspace tapping device that draws in or produces the power. It then puts it into storage. Now, the energy storage part is the majority of that volume. So, what you end up with, in theory, is a very large amount of stored energy at any given time. Which is well nice! There some pros and cons to this:

ZPR Pros:
Able to be recharged
Smaller than a hypermatter reactor
Equivalent in power to a hypermatter Reactor
ZPR Cons:
25-50x the Cost of a standard SW hypermatter reactor
Very long full-recharge time (~1 week)
Relatively short operation time (~1-5 years, depending on usage)

DEM Pros:
More Powerful than a hypermatter reactor
Smaller than a hypermatter reactor
Rechargable
DEM Cons:
Very long recharge time (2> Weeks)
50-100x the Cost of a hypermatter reactor
Relatively short operational time (5-10 years,depending on usage)

Now a few notes on this: The ZPR was my idea for a smaller non-exhaustible powersource that is equivalent to a hypermatter reactor. Now, unlike the reactor which needs fueling the ZPR doesn't need a fuel source in the same way. The downside is that compared to a ship powered with a hypermatter reactor, which can operate for decades or more, a ZPR powered ship is very limited according to its power usage. Though that usage is based on the amount of power drawn, it is still very short in comparison. Though I hate giving away plot devices, the Providence in Rising Part 2 is using a single ZPR. Which is not at full capacity, so that is your free hint.

DEMs or dark energy modules are my analogy to the ZPM of SG. So, let me explain how this is to work. As is probably very very clear from the comparison I put in, these are insanely expensive. Now, you have the benefit of more energy than ZPRs or any other such powersource. The downside is very directly an insanely long down period. At the best a ship running all the time can be operational for a single decade. This is not taking into account fleet actions and such, which will reduce that time. The more realistic time of operation is about half-decade (5yrs). Which is again also subject to being reduced due to actions that require high-power usage. So, perhaps that helps everyone out.

That all said, I agree with Ace's requirement with respect to the ZPM like powersource. I would like to make the note that it is the DEM not the ZPR that would be affected.

PS. In case it wasn't noticed when I did the writeup on paper, I specifically built in a drastically shorter working time than the SG ZPM.
Kane wrote:Okay, so it seems that all the remaining problems is in ICE's corner then. There's multiple problems at work. The first being that ICE hasn't done any research or exploration at all yet, yet here's a huge galactic nation just dropping into their knees? That's cutting things very short.

Next up. While ICE is supposed to eventually find aliens which they can work with, perhaps even an alien nation they could be on friendly terms with, introducing the Covenant is equal parts too much, too early, and too advanced. Triply so when looking at the crossover aspect.
That as I mentioned above, is going to remain barely noticeable until or unless it is involved by Mai or Ace.
Kane wrote:Although he didn't say so, I get the impression that Kurge doesn't want to give out the details of certain plot point he's told me about, so I'll keep that for now. He's also told me that he will be scarce for the next two weeks, so perhaps we can't work out a solution yet.
That would be correct. However, if that is worth informing Mai about then feel free to do so. If you do, Mai, that will not be referenced in this discussion as that is a major plot point and I kinda gave up more than I am inclined to already. Thanks! :)
Kane wrote:Just as a reminder, a solution hinges on the balance of 1) ease of interaction. 2) size and scope. 3) tech level.

1) is problematic. Super- and hypergates aside, ICE can simply fly where it wants. 2) is even worse. Even if, say, a large war breaks out in the Covenant and ICE wants to stay out of harms way, the sheer size of the Covenant makes it a superior concern. 3) is a nightmare.

As an example, if we were talking something like the Mass Effect galaxy, their relative weakness would mean that ICE has nothing to gain from them aside from research, raw materials and possibly willing recruits. In the same manner, ICE has nothing to fear from any aggression of theirs. In short, even with several large nations, all the cards would be in ICE's hands, allowing us to play out any scenario we want.

Perhaps Kurge can address some of 1) and 3) with his planned scenario, but 2) remains a problem, even though he means to reduce it. It could be worked around given that ICE can go where it wants, but the danger remains that a whole galaxy full of advanced aliens will overshadow anything else ICE might do.
1) The supergates connect only the following: Citadel Station, rim of Covenant Galaxy and SW Galaxy. There are only three such gates. One is *possibly* going to be destroyed in said plot event. The other will fall into NIF hands. The third is *probably* going to be intact but *damaged*.

2) This is the map of Covenant space: Cartograph of Covenant Space. I have a correction on the size here. I forget it earlier as it was in on a page that was stuck to another one! Sorry!

The size of their 'territory' is able to be fit inside of the square (M9,M10,L9,L10) on the NIF map. In other words, it would be able to fit inside of the larger bulged section Hutt Space. So, to make sure that is understood it is a small fraction of the size of the overall galaxy. The stuff linked outside of their official boundaries are various mining and corporate operations. So, I would think that #2 is probably not quite as large an issue as I unintentionally lead it to be. Again, I apologize for that!

3) I think that was addressed more or less in the plot point that I addressed to you Ace. If that needs to be expounded or revised I will be happy to work out an acceptable compromise.

Thank you everyone for your feedback questions and comments!

Edited: Removed the quote that was accidentally in and noticed a couple of grammatical errors. Edited the grammatical to better convey the intended meaning. No real content altered.
Last edited by TyrAnazazi on 2011-04-23 22:24, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-23 20:42

Much better, I can work with this.

Mai is and remains the ultimate authority for ICE. I'll let her handle Rikku and any potential involvement Covenant - ICE, if any. She's more than capable and I don't want to step on her toes. If you need something third part resolved, I'm available to help out.

Since Jericho is practically already performing the function, I appoint him crossover moderator. His task will be to follow the outlines given in this thread and see to that nothing goes awry, and arbitrate as necessary. He already has moderator capacity in the lounge, so this is just making it official.

This thread wasn't only wholly necessary, but I think it's been for the better, and I like the fact that we could keep it in the open, even if it meant giving up some plot details. At least partially open planning is both necessary and good, and that goes for every thread.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-23 22:33

Kane wrote:Much better, I can work with this.

Mai is and remains the ultimate authority for ICE. I'll let her handle Rikku and any potential involvement Covenant - ICE, if any. She's more than capable and I don't want to step on her toes. If you need something third part resolved, I'm available to help out.

Since Jericho is practically already performing the function, I appoint him crossover moderator. His task will be to follow the outlines given in this thread and see to that nothing goes awry, and arbitrate as necessary. He already has moderator capacity in the lounge, so this is just making it official.

This thread wasn't only wholly necessary, but I think it's been for the better, and I like the fact that we could keep it in the open, even if it meant giving up some plot details. At least partially open planning is both necessary and good, and that goes for every thread.
YAY! :D

So, to make sure that everyone is clear: I have your permission to continue, while applying the the notes changes & understandings, as outlined here in this thread? As to Jericho being assigned or promoted, that definitely suites me very much! I am sure that Jericho will do a very good job!

Ace, for future reference, I will do my best to remember to discuss any future ideas that I have with you before I do something. I am very glad that we could work this out! I think that I can say that both you, everyone else and I would have been a lot less stressed if I had done so.

Mai,

I know that you have your overall plans. I wouldn't want to cause any problems or 'ruin' them as I know you worked hard and they will be good. If possible can you please consider or look into things that I could be involved in. I would be very extremely appreciative! I know that I am probably asking you to do something you don't necessarily like/want to do. Yet, it would mean very much to me if you would.
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