R & D Commentary

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Jericho Winters
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Jericho Winters » 2011-05-06 21:13

Best Long range craft like that was the tradeoff 'Tie Hunter" for the storm commandos, heck it even incorporated 's-foils' like the darn X-wing. If we were to make something to fill that long range role, I'd suggest it would be an improved one of those ;)

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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Neil Astor » 2011-05-06 23:09

Yeah, Fini, that's the one. Thanks! :D
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Jake Hagel » 2011-05-07 10:35

Regarding the Titan, I think Vader said it best. "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." :D

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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Spyker Katarn » 2011-05-07 17:08

Jake Hagel wrote:Regarding the Titan, I think Vader said it best. "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." :D
It proved to be a pretty potent point defense weapon when attached to a ship ;)
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Tavish McFini » 2011-05-08 02:59

I think we should give the Nemesis a full compliment of those things... I'm sure a Titan is fully sealed to atmosphere so they could just waltz around on the outer hull, hiding in that... city structure (for lack of a better term to describe that central portion on the top of the ship) and take potshots at enemy snubs :D

I am Grand Admiral Baron Bartender McFini, and I'm going to devote 90% of Third Fleet's budget to making that dream a reality :D
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Tycho » 2011-05-25 23:02

I'm posting this in regards to controversy over "why develop new fighters when we already have perfectly good ones?"

This same question is one the U.S. politicians continue to ask Lockheed and other military aircraft producers. The answer is that it's a catch-22.

You spend the money and make the aircraft because you want to be ten steps ahead of your enemy's technology. The response to this is "well their tech is crap and we can completely destroy it." Yes, yes we can, but the only reason we can do that is because we have the top aircraft. If we stop making superior aircraft just because our enemies can't possibly counter them... guess what? They'll catch up. The point is to always be better than your enemy. So if anything is a viable improvement over previous models the question shouldn't be "Why should we make it?" because the reason should be obvious, it continues to advance superiority in aviation combat. The real question should be "Can it work?" and if it does, then by all means it should go in production. (unless it has a ridiculous pricetag)

That's how the USAF and naval aviators approach it (most of the time).

That's not to say that old fighters can't kick rear, but it's more about the pilots than the planes. For instance, I have a direct family member who flies F-5 Tigers (really old fighters) and is the 'bad guy' for the training missions. They go up against F-15 Eagles and F/A-18s and Super Hornets. Guess who wins the majority of the time? The F-5s. (they will usually get three kills in, which is a lot) Why? Because they are piloted by top notch aviators who know how to get (as Fini said) 100% out of their aircraft, whereas the other squadrons have relatively new pilots.

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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Luciana Endivain » 2011-05-31 19:06

To: Any Admin/R&D Mods
Subj. Please?

I know we have a lot of projects being looked at right now, but if someone could review this before it gets shoved to the 3rd page and becomes forgotten about, it would be much appreciated. I sorta have a few other projects that would benefit greatly from such a device as having a low-powered, programable camoflauge device could only help, not hinder, people, vehicles, budget starships and people looking for a really inexpensive way to gain that extra edge on their enemies.

Thanks :)
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Spyker Katarn » 2011-05-31 19:33

I'm not sure what the difference between that and the Camoleon suit's tech is. Anything brushing up against the field would disrupt it, plus you'd need a decent amount of power to project the field at any great distance (that's why the Camoleon suit's holofield is restricted to only an inch or two away from the suit itself). I'd need to take a closer look at it though before saying much else.
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Tavish McFini » 2011-05-31 19:45

The primary difference is cost. The device proposed is meant to be a really inexpensive holoprojector that simply creates a field image around the user of various camo patterns. No fancy expensive high-def cameras, no complicated and complex sensors. The field is only going to cover the user in a very short radius too, ie, it'd be like creating an image of a full sized person and maybe only slightly bigger than that so the person is actually covered by the holo-field. If someone brushes up against the field, well, a) that person is an enemy and will probably be shot or knifed for being so unobservant (and only having a wis or spot score of 2) or b) it's a friendly in which case, whatever part of his body is touching the field will be in its area of effect.

I might not have stressed it well enough in the project itself but it's supposed to be an easy to use, low maintenance and reliable form of camouflage that can be used with any suit of armour or even just normal clothes. Instead of painting or applying sticky camo patterns onto a suit of stormtrooper armour (which would take time and once on, become useless if TK-452 exited the forest to continue the fight into a city), this device creates it instantly on demand and can change. It's similar to the Chamoleon but it's usable for anyone and everyone from Scouttroopers to Zero-G troopers to even vehicles if you scale the technology up (which shouldn't be all that hard).

A very basic photoreceptor will look primarily at surrounding colours and ambient light levels to find the best camo pattern to display. Like those light sensors on a nightlight coupled with the lowest rez digital camera you will ever find. So, TK-452 in a forest? The photoreceptor will see the greens and browns and tell the holoprojector to display a forest type camo pattern with greens and browns in it. Oh, suddenly he entered a city that was bordering the forest which turned out to be a park. Now the camera tells the holoprojector to use an urban type camo pattern. Oh, TK-452 wants to stick with the forest camo? Fine, he manually overrides the camera with a quick press of a few buttons on his wrist top mini-computer controls.

That's the idea in a very basic nutshell. I might have skipped, overlooked or even changed a few concepts but I hope the general premise is there. Inexpensive camo that can be mass produced for the general masses (including Private Blankly) that takes advantage of the simple technology we have (in Star Wars).
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Jake Hagel » 2011-06-01 12:10

If people have got complaints about me, you can tell me in directly, in the open. I'm a big boy, I can handle it. Also, it's just words over the internet. It's not like you're punching me in the face or anything. As perhaps recent drama has shown (Maybe? I did not pay attention to it) or as life experiences show, talking behind people's backs is silly and never ends well.

Here's a problem I see with R&D in general, and it's why I've been being so harsh on a number of projects: tech creep and magic solutions.

We have to go with some sort of baseline for reference here, and that baseline I'm using is a modern human being. Ultimately, everything we use is designed for human use, so it should be operable by humans. I am assuming Star Wars humans aren't significantly faster, stronger, more capable, etc than us today. This means that much of the same things that limit us today will have analogues in Star Wars.

On project Katipo, honestly my complaint isn't even about the rifle itself (and sorry for dragging the project into this argument, by the way). My complaint is about how sniper rifles are viewed and used in-universe. That's not something I can fix with an R&D project. It's purely an RP thing. If, like has been said, our snipers have this magic calculator that tells you unerringly 100% where to point to get a hit, why even bother RPing a sniper? How boring. "John lined up and crosshairs and fired. The bolt hit, obviously, and turned the Governor's head into a shower of gore. Since John was 4 kilometers away and the bolt was invisible, he got away safely. John won."

We intentionally limit ourselves to have a more fun RP experience. Winning all the time is boring. Heck, even winning most of the time is boring. Losing is far more interesting, and I feel that we could do a lot more of that around here.

My complaint with the new TIE design is fundamentally that it improves on the previous design in every way. Capabilities, performance, cost, and has no drawbacks. Just because something is newer doesn't mean it's better in all aspects. I would like to see some real, rational and significant flaws in each R&D design. Not cop-out stuff like "oh, in certain cases it's not that great" or "it costs more" or "it takes more time". In the case of the new TIE, I suspect that in-universe it would be quite the hangar queen. Your new fancy super high-tech machine is no good when parts break and have to be replaced every flight.

The best tool for the job is the simplest one that gets the job done. In this case however, "getting the job done" requires the highest performance we can give, making the machine not so simple. Still, there is a tradeoff between capabilities and reliability, and we are not and should not be 100% on the capabilities side of the continuum.

Next, there is the separate issue of the appeal to other moderators/admins. I would be a poor critic if I were afraid to criticize things that others in my position or higher up have approved. Let's say I wanted to create project "super-blaster" - a handheld blaster pistol that is in all other ways completely normal, but can vaporize AT-ATs. Let's also say I got Ace's approval on the project. Does that mean my project is suddenly sacrosanct? Of course not, it's absurd. And anyone who doesn't point that out for fear of those in higher positions is not doing a very good job at being an R&D mod.

And finally, know this: none of my criticisms are personal. I don't hate you as a person. let me repeat that, because it's worth repeating. I don't hate you as a person. I may think your ideas are silly and unrealistic, but that is not a criticism against you. It's just business.

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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Tavish McFini » 2011-06-01 15:41

Jake wrote:My complaint is about how sniper rifles are viewed and used in-universe. That's not something I can fix with an R&D project. It's purely an RP thing.
Then maybe you should take it up with the people who use sniper rifles and tell them how to RP rather than try to make a case in a project. It's not the weapon or the vehicle or the tool's fault if people are RPing them in a boring/unrealistic/uninteresting manner. The R&D forum is to create new designs, update existing ones or test theories etc. If you really have a complaint with how they're used and viewed in-universe, I believe we have a forum for that.
Jake wrote:Next, there is the separate issue of the appeal to other moderators/admins. I would be a poor critic if I were afraid to criticize things that others in my position or higher up have approved. Let's say I wanted to create project "super-blaster" - a handheld blaster pistol that is in all other ways completely normal, but can vaporize AT-ATs. Let's also say I got Ace's approval on the project. Does that mean my project is suddenly sacrosanct? Of course not, it's absurd. And anyone who doesn't point that out for fear of those in higher positions is not doing a very good job at being an R&D mod.
It should mean it's sacrosanct because otherwise it would mean 1) Ace's word as admin becomes seriously undervalued and people might start getting the wrong impression that, if he's wrong on this matter, what other matters could people start testing him on and 2) maybe you had a really convincing way of making your case for why your blaster can vaporize AT-ATs. You used a really general example, but again, this is the world of sci-fi and if you want to limit your thinking in such a manner, go ahead but I'm going to stick with what other sci-fi buffs do and love, pushing the envelope into the fantastical and seemingly magical.

If I'm going to be denied the ability to do even that, than why should I bother at all?
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Spyker Katarn » 2011-06-01 18:15

If you think the problems lie with the way things are RPed, take it elsewhere. That's what the Feedback forum is for, primarily. That's what the Academy forum is for, secondarily. That is not what the IDOMIR forum is for. This forum is for discussions on tech, not RP concerns.

I'm going to use the Katipo here as an example, simply because it is something I am familiar with (and not, say, the TIE/ad Mk.IV, which I'm not). Okay, you're using a modern human and modern tech (by that I mean Real Life Tech) as a baseline. All well and good. But, given the fact that we are not operating in the Real World, there is going to be some things that are quite frankly fantastic. "Any sufficiently advanced technology" and all that jazz. Okay, so I erred in saying essentially that our snipers are perfect all the time and their equipment is perfect all the time. I admit that. But, at the same time, that is indeed the ideal case. It's established in canon that snipers have datapads to do calculations on (again, they even have this in real life; PDAs are one of their most important tools simply because of the sheer number of calculations involved). It's established in canon (and in our own database, I might add) that they have remotes to take necessary data input and crosslink it to them. Under ideal conditions, which is what initial testing of equipment is performed at, the weapon will have the statistics listed.

Under less than ideal conditions, like on an actual battlefield, you can safely assume 50%-60% listed capability with a sniper rifle. Two-and-a-half kilometer shots are not out of the realm of possibility with Star Wars sniper rifles (the Prax Arms AFD-43 has a listed range of 3.5km, and the Nightstinger likely pushes 4 to 5 or more, given its power). Realistically, you'll need some serious elevation over your target to do that, plus better-than-perfect conditions (an isolated mountaintop surrounded by a flat plain with no other obstacles in the way, on a clear day with no precipitation; shooting through a cloud, even, will diffract and bend the particle or light beam, since the vapor will be larger than your average air component). In here, I assumed that the initial testing will be performed under ideal situations in a holosim, with environmental testing occurring elsewhere. These concerns were in fact considered, and while the word "effective" was perhaps incorrectly used, the theory is the same. Point the weapon, pull the trigger, and reach out to touch someone. If everything else is done right, your target goes down. There are sudden factors that will affect the shot, but that's where the roleplaying aspects come in.

Regarding the OOC concerns about RP, we've been trying to work on that. The Themis was just detonated over Arkania by technology we can't even begin to understand, let alone replicate. We lost at Arkania; the planet's now in a semi-state of civil war (at least the way I'm reading it). We have a very good chance of losing at Bogden, even with the conservative battleplan being undertaken right now. Yes, winning is boring, but all the things we're doing right now is just a prelude to an upcoming main event that's going to shake up everything, only to be followed by another big hit. I agree, we need to lose more, and we're working on that. However, that needs to go in the Feedback forum, not here.

I do apologize for my appeal to authority in the Katipo thread; it was unbecoming of me as both a player and an admin. Unlike Fini, I don't necessarily believe our words are sacrosanct all the time, but rather when the situation requires it (see the Covenant discussion, or the recent drama, for examples). Projects in IDOMIR are not one of those times, and it has been suggested that if a submitter doesn't believe that their project is being fairly looked at, another mod can be invited in. The problem here seems to be derived from the fact that you might be being unduly harsh on some projects due to your concerns about what it might do to the RP. If that's the case, then again I point you to the correct forum for such things. I don't hate you, I'm sure none of the other members do either, but that's what I'm seeing here.
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Tom Saint » 2011-06-02 12:54

He guys, I wanted to post on some topics last night but came home and ran straight on into a minor family disaster.. with a load of luck I,ll make it on tonight, hopefully to clear some of this stuff.
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Spyker Katarn » 2011-06-02 14:42

Take your time, Tom. We'll still be here. Go take care of your family.
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by jacenwesiri » 2011-06-02 16:26

Yeah, Tom, take whatever time you need and good luck with it.
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Tavish McFini » 2011-06-02 20:26

No worries Tom! Take care of yourself and your family! :D
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Spyker Katarn » 2011-06-03 16:04

Re: Project Oceania

Here's a thought: what if you made this into a convertible troop-transport ship (in case of emergency, like the Vong Invasion)? There is real-world precedent for such a thing (see the SS United States), and the cost could probably be subsidized by the NIF. It actually sounds like a decent idea, and would keep costs down. It could also help our aging population of Acclamators by lowering wear-and-tear on them.
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Devan Kronos » 2011-06-03 20:01

Spyker Katarn wrote:Re: Project Oceania

Here's a thought: what if you made this into a convertible troop-transport ship (in case of emergency, like the Vong Invasion)? There is real-world precedent for such a thing (see the SS United States), and the cost could probably be subsidized by the NIF. It actually sounds like a decent idea, and would keep costs down. It could also help our aging population of Acclamators by lowering wear-and-tear on them.
That would be part of the loan. The only people that could loan me the money I would need would be the NIF gov.

There is other precedent like you said. The US Government does the same thing with airlines. Any cargo or passenger plane larger than a 737 was partly paid for by the US Gov so they can be called up as part of the US Air Reserve.
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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Jubar Bavvet » 2011-06-04 05:32

I know I don't drop in R&D much ever, but I thought this might help. These are just some sample pics from a fascinating website that I thought might be useful. A ship I found here was the original inspiration for the Echelon, and I informed Ace about it and I figured I'd tell you guys. Just make sure if you use any of the designs you talk to the guys about using a pic or two for non-commercial use. What I've found is that with most sites like these, they're usually pretty cool about that sort of thing, just show them what NIF is and that's usually that.

Here's the link: http://conceptships.blogspot.com/

These guys are amazing! Lots of different artists, and some with fairly decent cross-sectionals. Here are just a few, but the website seems endless--I've never seen the end of it, so there are tons of things to draw inspiration from. Hope this helps.

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Re: R & D Commentary

Post by Aquila Slyphs » 2011-06-06 05:27

Wow, some of those are really nifty!!! It's actually interesting how flipping through many of those pictures can spark ideas for things that I always overlooked :lol:

Thanks Jubar!
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