Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

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Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by DraaygoRiinuuk » 2008-12-05 00:57

I had an idea earlier today on a new kind of ship for the Mandalarans (with the possibility of a similiar NIF design but I'll get into that later) but I seem to be a little ignorant on exactly how I could make it work, so I figured I'd try asking everyone and see if I could work out the kinks collectively. So, here it goes:

My idea came to me while reading Fini's second post in C1M29 where he launched the Raptors ahead of his fleet in order to maintain a small amount of stealth (Read the post if you need more background than that.) The Y-4 is kind of stealthy, but still has a risk of being spotted. So I began of thinking of other more covert ways of landing a bunch of troops on a planet. My mind jumped to Orbital Insertion Pods (The ones Wraith Squadron used to get onto Vong controlled Coruscant), and somehow from there I got the craziest idea to have something similar but fired through hyperspace like the torpedoes from a Galaxy Gun (don't ask how I came to this idea because I have no clue, my mind is just weird like that). Now my biggest hinderance here is not knowing how the Galaxy Gun fired a torpedo through hyperspace. Nothing I have found says HOW it can do this, it is just universally accepted that it CAN.

As for the ship. I figure it'd have to be at least as big as a heavy cruiser. It'd fire big, egg-shaped pods that'd carry at least 40 people through hyperspace at the designated planet. The range would be fairly short on a galactic scale, probably just outside of the system (I.E. a microjump). The pod would be fired at about the speed of a 1x hyperdrive, the gravity well of the planet would bring the ship out of hyperspace, making it loose some momentum, but not much. It would then travel at a very high speed through the atmosphere, slowing as much as possible before impact, probably leaving a bit of a crater.

I figured I'd make it a Mandalaran vessel, since we could use a cloaked shuttle if we really wanted to, but they don't really use that kind of stuff. But, if someone asks, I'd be glad to come up with an NIF equivalent.

So the big discussion is, what exactly is the mechanics behind such a crazy ship?

I thought maybe something similar to a mass driver?
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Re: Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by Spyker Katarn » 2008-12-05 03:08

I have serious doubts about the feasibility and possibility of this. The pods would need some serious relativistic shielding, as well as sublight and hyperspace engines to bring them out of lightspeed and slow them down to the point where they could safely enter an atmosphere. Even with inertial dampeners, upon collision with the planet, the people inside would be seriously injured if not killed upon impact at near-lightspeed. That is, if they managed to survive the atmospheric entry without burning up from the sheer heat. I'm not sure if shielding would cut down on it, but I doubt that even the strong shield of DSII could withstand the heat of reentry at the speed of light, or even .75 c.

As for the Gravity Gun's torpedo, a torp is different. It doesn't need to slow down before impact; in fact, it might actually be better because then it would have a penetration effect as well, potentially leading to more damage to the target. I don't mean to shoot down the idea, just point out some major flaws that would need to be rectified before even considering it.
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Re: Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by Tavish McFini » 2008-12-05 16:46

Heh, it's funny how I can spark things and how you folks seem to have the ability to read my mind at times :shock: (more on that in a bit)
Draaygo wrote:My idea came to me while reading Fini's second post in C1M29 where he launched the Raptors ahead of his fleet in order to maintain a small amount of stealth (Read the post if you need more background than that.) The Y-4 is kind of stealthy, but still has a risk of being spotted.
It's unfortunate that the only real stealthy transport we have is the raptor which means we're limited to troops, AT-STs and AT-PTs. Though, for most covert operations, I guess it should be enough, I mean, once an AT-AT starts lumbering its way towards the enemy, the element of surprise is kinda lost. Still, it'd be nice to design another Raptor ship large enough to carry an AT-AT or repulsor tanks.

But I digress...
Draaygo wrote:My mind jumped to Orbital Insertion Pods...
I think we have those, though none of them are really meant to be coming in from beyond the limits of planetary sensor range before going "whumph" onto the planet's surface.
Draaygo wrote:...the craziest idea...
You're right, that is a crazy idea... wait, let's hear the idea first...
Draaygo wrote:...to have something similar but fired through hyperspace like the torpedoes from a Galaxy Gun...
It is a crazy idea, but I think it's actually kindof doable. I was thinking of actually having Third Fleet build a Galaxy Gun, though I'm not sure how much support I would be granted for such an undertaking. Anyways, that's beyond the point. I will agree with Spyher about entering a planetary atmosphere at near lightspeeds, unless the pod was made from solid rock or aerodynamic like hell, it'll break up from all the heat and air resistance pushing against it.

The Galaxy Gun worked as a particle accelerator except we're not smashing atoms here, we're firing large torpedoes the size of frigates. Once fired, the torpedoes would enter hyperspace and beeline it to it's destination. The problem is, the GG is huge! Probably about 3x the length (or more) of an ISD.

But, if we could make this work, it doesn't sound unreasonable to assume that, since we're only taking short distances here, we could shrink the GG to something of a heavy cruiser. There's still the matter of the pod not breaking up upon entry. I think the need to slow it down is going to be necessary unless we have some majorly powerful inertial dampers.

Here's another suggestion. Why not do what Thrawn did? He launched a bunch of cloaked meteors from a group of Star Destroyers at the big capital (though they weren't filled with troops) and the NR had a heck of a time finding them all which disrupted traffic big time! So, take that principle: Install cloaking devices on drop pods. This eliminates the need for a Galaxy Gun like mechanism at all and will remove the need for serious inertial dampening. The ships just have to make sure that the pod is aimed in the right direction (no biggie, I won't aim for the bridge of the Intimidator! Some people might get that joke... ;) ) and then, when it makes planetfall, just before impact, retro rockets fire and the pod lands, deactivating the cloak and spilling troops out! The only real signal of enemy incursion would be the ships entering the atmosphere, but most planets have lots of that sort of traffic (and no none of the novels really makes any sort of mention of ships entering atmosphere and how noticeable it is).
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Re: Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by Kane » 2008-12-24 10:02

OR we can use cloaked shuttles, which has multiple advantages over either. Like I don't know, the S-TR1 which I designed back in 2001. :lol:

Anyway, we don't have stealthed heavy transports since there's not been a need for one. Like Fini noted, an AT-AT isn't designed to be unnoticeable. BUT, it's a good idea because it reminds me that I should launch another old idea sitting in my drawer for such a long time that the spiders in there have died out due to lack of flies. I'll just point out that since ships as large as Acclamators can land, we can surely use cloaked/stelthed starships to land troops with them, should the need arise. IF anyone wants to design some kind of stealthed heavy transport, go ahead.
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Re: Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by DraaygoRiinuuk » 2008-12-24 15:37

Okay, so throwing people from a hyperspace catapult isn't such a good idea. Figured it wasn't, wanted to make sure.
IF anyone wants to design some kind of stealthed heavy transport, go ahead.
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Re: Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by Tavish McFini » 2008-12-29 01:59

Ace wrote:I'll just point out that since ships as large as Acclamators can land, we can surely use cloaked/stelthed starships to land troops with them, should the need arise.
So, why not give an Acclamator a cloaking device and a trained Dark Jedi with the ability to use Battle Meditation to enable the crew to see what the DJ senses and land said ship? Failing that, just paint it black, give it a stealth coating and land it on "the dark side of the moon" so to speak! ;)
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Re: Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by Jericho Winters » 2009-05-24 06:09

just a crazy idea about the above.

You are all worrying about g-forces affects on humans and other biological beings right?

Wouldn't the shell fired need only engines on one side to bring it out of hyperspace say 500 seconds from it target world and extra booster engines to slow down it's trajectory?

Once inside the atmosphere the pods could apply air breaking techniques and 'wings' to generate atmospheric friction needed to land safely !

BESIDES WHO EVER SAID THEY HAD TO CARRY PEOPLE? DROIDS WOULD WORK!!!!!

I guess that means you can chuck out life support and most of the inertial dampeners.
Why not use that extra weight you just saved for more breaking thrusters?

Anyone stuck in a space battle and being kept at bay by the rebels at least a week away from getting to a world that the army is on and is in desperate need for assistance?

Yeeaaaaahhhhhhh you can handle that! No problem
Send in wave after wave of droid reinforcements.


It could be also be a good way of prepositioning supplies on far-off uninhabited worlds that armies could generally get to prepare for war. This would be like how historians believed Alexander the Great dealt with his armies need for food. (By sending and burrying huge surplus' of food YEARS IN ADVANCE OF HIS MARCH. This is also what modern armies do:

Take the US forces in Germany during the cold war. The US left only enough men to hold for 72 hours and enough machinery for for a full division of soldiers, (they could bring that manpower in about 48 hours from outside the theater).

Who needs the cloaking ability anyway if the enemy only has a short amount of time to manuever countermeasures into position, fire and hopefully take down a massive fast moving object? Who really needs Stealth anyway if the enemy only has about 4 and a
half minutes to react to something with such a large velocity?

besides any surface would be red hot when it touched down anyway so no stealth would be needed right? Its hull would be bright red from the heat!

Who cares if one of them got shot down? There only carrying droids and equipment send more!

Get the troopers on planet one way (they could even go in undercover before hand as civilians ) and the equipment they can use another way.

In situations not requiring stealth it would be a perfect way of dropping an AT-AT down to the troops which needed it.
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Re: Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by Kane » 2009-06-05 02:50

Jericho Winters wrote:just a crazy idea about the above.

You are all worrying about g-forces affects on humans and other biological beings right?

Wouldn't the shell fired need only engines on one side to bring it out of hyperspace say 500 seconds from it target world and extra booster engines to slow down it's trajectory?

Once inside the atmosphere the pods could apply air breaking techniques and 'wings' to generate atmospheric friction needed to land safely !

BESIDES WHO EVER SAID THEY HAD TO CARRY PEOPLE? DROIDS WOULD WORK!!!!!

I guess that means you can chuck out life support and most of the inertial dampeners.
Why not use that extra weight you just saved for more breaking thrusters?

Anyone stuck in a space battle and being kept at bay by the rebels at least a week away from getting to a world that the army is on and is in desperate need for assistance?

Yeeaaaaahhhhhhh you can handle that! No problem
Send in wave after wave of droid reinforcements.
Droids don't make much of a difference at the speed we're talking. They can withstand a bit more retardation than organics, but those pods are still going to need shields, retro thrusters, maneuvering thrusters, and inertial dampeners.
Jericho Winters wrote:It could be also be a good way of prepositioning supplies on far-off uninhabited worlds that armies could generally get to prepare for war. This would be like how historians believed Alexander the Great dealt with his armies need for food. (By sending and burrying huge surplus' of food YEARS IN ADVANCE OF HIS MARCH. This is also what modern armies do:

Take the US forces in Germany during the cold war. The US left only enough men to hold for 72 hours and enough machinery for for a full division of soldiers, (they could bring that manpower in about 48 hours from outside the theater).
We have the ability to manufacture supplies and equipment on the spot. No supply train is necessary as long as we deploy construction droids with our troops.
Jericho Winters wrote:Who needs the cloaking ability anyway if the enemy only has a short amount of time to manuever countermeasures into position, fire and hopefully take down a massive fast moving object? Who really needs Stealth anyway if the enemy only has about 4 and a half minutes to react to something with such a large velocity?
Four and a half minute is enough time to fire 1,620 light turbolaser shots at it. From a single gun.
Jericho Winters wrote:besides any surface would be red hot when it touched down anyway so no stealth would be needed right? Its hull would be bright red from the heat!
With no stealth tech involved, pods are going to be heavily radiating targets while retarding. Atmospheric heating on the other hand will be over in a few seconds with typical entry/re-entry speed. If we keep the pods in hyperspace all the way to the planet, they will be detected at long range and while they can't be shot down at that speed, a local or planetary shield will stop them cold. Galaxy gun projectiles had .25 hyperdrives, shield-penetrating ability, strong deflectors shields and interceptor guns. Typical stealth approach is done at sublight velocity, minimal thrust, silent running, while employing passive/active stealth devices.
Jericho Winters wrote:Who cares if one of them got shot down? There only carrying droids and equipment send more!
If they've got shields up, it's a more expensive way of shooting projectiles at them.
Jericho Winters wrote:Get the troopers on planet one way (they could even go in undercover before hand as civilians ) and the equipment they can use another way.

In situations not requiring stealth it would be a perfect way of dropping an AT-AT down to the troops which needed it.
Or a ship can deploy it. They're already made to transport equipment safely. Pods aren't.

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Re: Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by Loki Mortist » 2009-06-05 05:13

Ok then how about a gestalt system for a cloaked shuttle.

Think of like a Mac cannon that would accelerate the shuttle toward the planet from far away. The shuttle would come out of hyperspace still cloaked inside the target system while leaving no hyperspace 'footprint' from its own engines being active.

Then the shuttle would slow down and manuever using very hard to read on scanners, a series of controlled burns from it ion engines to get it into the planet's atmosphere where it could touch down without much notice.

Multiples of such shuttles could be deployed in quick secession from relatively far distances. How big is the Galaxy gun ''Shell' anyway? Could a shuttle fit inside one safely once it was fired on a lower velocity setting?

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Re: Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by Kane » 2009-06-05 19:04

Loki Mortist wrote:Ok then how about a gestalt system for a cloaked shuttle.

Think of like a Mac cannon that would accelerate the shuttle toward the planet from far away. The shuttle would come out of hyperspace still cloaked inside the target system while leaving no hyperspace 'footprint' from its own engines being active.
A ship doesn't use its sublight engines in hyperspace anyway, it uses its hyperdrive. Exiting hyperspace requires the use of a hyperdrive and causes cronau radiation. A cloak absorbs this kind of radiation (and likely, re-transmit it as a neutrino beam like shield systems do). Basically, an external propelling system is redundant. A ship maintains the sublight speed it had before entry.
Loki Mortist wrote:Then the shuttle would slow down and manuever using very hard to read on scanners, a series of controlled burns from it ion engines to get it into the planet's atmosphere where it could touch down without much notice.
Engine thrust always has a chance of being detected, however sensors aren't perfect and maneuvering thrust can be minimal. So yeah, this is a basic stealth approach.
Loki Mortist wrote:Multiples of such shuttles could be deployed in quick secession from relatively far distances. How big is the Galaxy gun ''Shell' anyway? Could a shuttle fit inside one safely once it was fired on a lower velocity setting?
The exact function of the Galaxy Gun is unknown. We know that it loads its projectiles, so it doesn't manufacture them by itself, although I consider that function possible. The projectile exits hyperspace on its own, so it must have a hyperdrive. Likewise it's equipped with shields, sublight engines, point defences, and obviously, a targeting system, onboard computer, and warhead.

The only functions left possible for the Galaxy Gun itself is -

a) Initial acceleration of the projectile
This is a likely function. It's not strictly necessary, but it lowers the need of on-board fuel (not that the amount of fuel really matters in the case of such a large projectile), and lowers the chance of early interception. It also seems that this gives the projectile a high sublight speed, so that when it exits hyperspace near its target, it already has a high velocity towards it, reducing the time to intercept the projectile and removing the need for the projectile to accelerate on its own, again reducing needed fuel. We do know, however, that GG projectiles still have on-board sublight engines, and it appears to accelerate further upon re-entry. It's rather inaccurate to think of them as projectiles, actually. They're fully functional capital ships, only without crew and with a large on-board warhead. It's more correct to consider them advanced ramships.

b) Initial hyperspace jump
Possible function, although since the projectile itself must have a on-board hyperdrive, it's not necessary by any means. Perhaps it increases the hyperspeed of the projectile and it carries only a slow hyperdrive for re-entry. It reduces on-board fuel need as well. We do know that an "inverted hyperdrive" which propels a separate object is possible, but it's unknown if the GG has this function. Personally, I'd call it likely.

c) Initial programming
Likely function. Target recognition parameters, warhead detonation programming (it's highly variable in power), general behavioural programming, flight path, interception parameters, etc.

The size of GG projectiles are ~100-150 m in length and a diameter of ~10-15 m, not counting fins. That's capital size, definitely larger than a shuttle. I could measure them more precisely, but it's not necessary for this discussion.

However, the only possibly useful function from loading a shuttle into a galaxy gun is higher hyperdrive speed, something you could fix easily enough by improving the on-board hyperdrive (although hyperdrive speed is largely irrelevant for interception purposes). In short, firing a shuttle from a galaxy gun is a totally redundant function which offers no tactical advantages.

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Re: Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2009-10-04 05:22

Why not do something similar to what Fini proposed or mentioned earlier?

Why not take a bunch of asteroids and use those for traffic disruption! Maybe put some rockets on them to then send them hurtling down on our unsuspecting targets too. That way we can disrupt and make them spend precious time clearing their traffic routes. That way we can attack while they are busy dealing with said problem...

Otherwise, we could just launch a massive hoard of asteroids down at their cities and such. If I am not mistaken it would be pretty effective and if nothing else cause some terror in the civilian population.

(There is an advantage to launching a shuttle that way: It is to be able to say to the NR that we can launch shuttles through G.Gs and they can't!) - j/k
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Re: Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by Tycho » 2009-10-04 17:29

We could launch Single Occupant Exoatmospheric Insertion Vehicles from the galaxy gun. For insertion teams or like Jericho said for assaults. (Actually, that would work out well for the Sarapin assault.) If we have those developed yet. If not I will just copy paste it from the Halo site :D

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Re: Theoretical Ship #1 (OOC Discussion)

Post by Spyker Katarn » 2009-10-04 18:27

Tycho wrote:We could launch Single Occupant Exoatmospheric Insertion Vehicles from the galaxy gun. For insertion teams or like Jericho said for assaults. (Actually, that would work out well for the Sarapin assault.) If we have those developed yet. If not I will just copy paste it from the Halo site :D
We do have drop pods, but SOEIVs wouldn't be able to take the stress of being shot out of the Galaxy Gun. They'd disintegrate at c-relative speeds, plus you have the points I raised earlier on in the thread:
Spyker Katarn wrote:I have serious doubts about the feasibility and possibility of this. The pods would need some serious relativistic shielding, as well as sublight and hyperspace engines to bring them out of lightspeed and slow them down to the point where they could safely enter an atmosphere. Even with inertial dampeners, upon collision with the planet, the people inside would be seriously injured if not killed upon impact at near-lightspeed. That is, if they managed to survive the atmospheric entry without burning up from the sheer heat. I'm not sure if shielding would cut down on it, but I doubt that even the strong shield of DSII could withstand the heat of reentry at the speed of light, or even .75 c.
A Halo-style drop pod is an alloy crash cage (Titanium-A, or a Ti-Fe-V alloy of some sort), with a ceramic outer covering similar to the tiles on the space shuttle or the heat shield on the Soyuz capsule. There's a small life-support system, some rocket fuel for short jumps after landing, and some electronics for control and communications. A command SOEIV would have a limited military AI (I'd guess a third- or fourth-degree droid brain equivalent, or a virtual intelligence from Mass Effect). That's it, really.
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